... ([info]baikonur) wrote in [info]aynrandforum,
This is an open letter from John Hospers, the first Libertarian presidential candidate, to libertarians detailing why he is supporting Bush this November. Bush supporter or not, it is an interesting read, and he even brings Ayn Rand into it. ;)


An Open Letter To Libertarians
by John Hospers

Dear Libertarian:

As a way of getting acquainted, let me just say that I was the first presidential candidate for the Libertarian Party back in l972, and was the author of the first full-length book, Libertarianism, describing libertarianism in detail. I also wrote the Libertarian Party's Statement of Principles at the first libertarian national convention in 1972. I still believe in those principles as strongly as ever, but this year -- more than any year since the establishment of the Libertarian Party -- I have major concerns about the choices open to us as voting Americans.

There is a belief that's common among many libertarians that there is no essential difference between the Democrat and Republican Parties -- between a John Kerry and a George W. Bush administration; or worse: that a Bush administration would be more undesirable. Such a notion could not be farther from the truth, or potentially more harmful to the cause of liberty.

The election of John Kerry would be, far more than is commonly realized, a catastrophe. Regardless of what he may say in current campaign speeches, his record is unmistakable: he belongs to the International Totalitarian Left in company with the Hillary and Bill Clintons, the Kofi Annans, the Ted Kennedys, and the Jesse Jacksons of the world. The Democratic Party itself has been undergoing a transformation in recent years; moderate, pro-American, and strong defense Senators such as Zell Miller, Joe Lieberman and Scoop Jackson are a dying breed. Observe how many members of the Democrat Party belong to the Progressive Caucus, indistinguishable from the Democratic Socialists of America. That caucus is the heart and soul of the contemporary Democratic Party.

Today's Democrats have been out of majority power for so long that they are hungry for power at any price and will do anything to achieve it, including undermining the President and our troops in time of war; for them any victory for Americans in the war against terrorism is construed as a defeat for them.

The Democratic Party today is a haven for anti-Semites, racists, radical environmentalists, plundering trial lawyers, government employee unions, and numerous other self-serving elites who despise the Constitution and loathe private property. It is opposed to free speech: witness the mania for political correctness and intimidation on college campuses, and Kerry's threat to sue television stations that carry the Swift Boat ads. If given the power to do so, Democrats will use any possible means to suppress opposing viewpoints, particularly on talk radio and in the university system. They will attempt to enact "hate speech" and "hate crime" laws and re-institute the Fairness Doctrine, initiate lawsuits, and create new regulations designed to suppress freedom of speech and intimidate their political adversaries. They will call it "defending human rights." This sort of activity may well make up the core of a Kerry administration Justice Department that will have no truck with the rule of law except as a weapon to use against opponents.

There are already numerous stories of brownshirt types committing violence against Republican campaign headquarters all over the country, and Democrat thugs harassing Republican voters at the polls. Yet not a word about it from the Kerry campaign. Expect this dangerous trend to increase dramatically with a Kerry win, ignored and tacitly accepted by the liberal-left mainstream media. This is an ominous sign of worse things to come.

Kerry, who changes direction with the wind, has tried to convince us that he now disavows the anti-military sentiments that he proclaimed repeatedly in the l970s. But in fact he will weaken our military establishment and devastate American security by placing more value on the United Nations than on the United States: for example he favors the Kyoto Treaty and the International Criminal Court, and opposed the withdrawal of the U. S. from the ABM Treaty. He has been quoted as saying that it is honorable for those in the U. S. military to die under the flag of the U. N. but not that of the U. S. Presumably he and a small cadre of bureaucrats should rule the world, via the U. N. or some other world body which will make all decisions for the whole world concerning private property, the use of our military, gun ownership, taxation, and environmental policy (to name a few). In his thirty-year career he has demonstrated utter contempt for America, national security, constitutional republicanism, democracy, private property, and free markets.

His wife's foundations have funneled millions of dollars into far-left organizations that are virulently hostile to America and libertarian principles. Not only would these foundations continue to lack transparency to the American people, they would be given enormous vigor in a Kerry administration.

Already plans are afoot by the Kerry campaign to steal the coming election via a legal coup, e. g. to claim victory on election night no matter what the vote differential is, and initiate lawsuits anywhere and everywhere they feel it works to their advantage, thus making a mockery of our election process, throwing the entire process into chaos -- possibly for months -- and significantly weakening our ability to conduct foreign policy and protect ourselves domestically. Let me repeat: we are facing the very real possibility of a political coup occurring in America. Al Gore very nearly got away with one in 2000. Do not underestimate what Kerry and his ilk are going to attempt to do to America.

George Bush has been criticized for many things -- and in many cases with justification: on campaign finance reform (a suppression of the First Amendment), on vast new domestic spending, on education, and on failing to protect the borders. No self-respecting libertarian or conservative would fail to be deeply appalled by these. His great virtue, however, is that he has stood up -- knowingly at grave risk to his political viability -- to terrorism when his predecessors, Ford, Carter, Reagan, and Clinton did not. On many occasions during their administrations terrorists attacked American lives and property. Clinton did nothing, or engaged in a feckless retaliation such as bombing an aspirin factory in the Sudan (based on faulty intelligence, to boot). Then shortly after Bush became president he was hit with "the big one": 9/11. It was clear to him that terrorism was more than a series of criminal acts: it was a war declared upon U. S. and indeed to the entire civilized world long before his administration. He decided that action had to be taken to protect us against future 9/11s involving weapons of mass destruction, including "suitcase" nuclear devices.

Indeed, today it is Islamic fundamentalism that increasingly threatens the world just as Nazi fascism and Soviet communism did in previous decades. The Islamo-fascists would be happy to eliminate all non-Muslims without a tinge of regret. Many Americans still indulge in wishful thinking on this issue, viewing militant Islam as a kind of nuisance, which can be handled without great inconvenience in much the same way as one swats flies, rather than as hordes of genocidal religious fanatics dedicated to our destruction.

The president has been berated for taking even minimal steps to deal with the dangers of this war (the allegations made against the Patriot Act seem to me based more on hysteria and political opportunism than on reality). But Bush, like Churchill, has stood steadfast in the face of it, and in spite of the most virulent hate and disinformation campaign that any American president has had to endure. Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for terrorists. Saddam's regime is no longer a major player in the worldwide terror network. Libya has relinquished their weapons of terror. The Pakistani black market in weapons of mass destruction has been eliminated. Arafat is rotting in Ramallah. Terrorist cells all over the world have been disrupted, and thousands of terrorists killed. The result: Americans are orders of magnitude safer.

National defense is always expensive, and Bush has been widely excoriated for these expenditures. But as Ayn Rand memorably said at a party I attended in l962, in response to complaints that "taxes are too high" (then 20%), "Pay 80% if you need it for defense." It is not the amount but the purpose served that decides what is "too much." And the purpose here is the continuation of civilized life on earth in the face of vastly increased threats to its existence.

Bush cut income tax rates for the first time in fifteen years. These cuts got us moving out of the recession he inherited, and we are all economically much better off because of them. 1.9 million new jobs have been added to the economy since August 2003. Bush has other projects in the wind for which libertarians have not given him credit. For example:

(l) A total revision of our tax code. We will have a debate concerning whether this is best done via a flat tax or a sales tax. If such a change were to occur, it would be a gigantic step in the direction of liberty and prosperity. No such change will occur with Kerry.

(2) A market-based reform of Social Security. This reform, alone, could bring future budget expenditures down so significantly that it would make his current expenditures seem like pocket change. Kerry has already repudiated any such change in social security laws.

The American electorate is not yet psychologically prepared for a completely libertarian society. A transition to such a society takes time and effort, and involves altering the mind-set of most Americans, who labor under a plethora of economic fallacies and political misconceptions. It will involve a near-total restructuring of the educational system, which today serves the liberal-left education bureaucracy and Democratic Party, not the student or parent. It will require a merciless and continuous expose of the bias in the mainstream media (the Internet, blogs, and talk radio have been extremely successful in this regard over the past few years). And it will require understanding the influence and importance of the Teresa Kerry-like Foundations who work in the shadows to undermine our constitutional system of checks and balances.

Most of all, it will require the American people -- including many libertarians -- to realize the overwhelming dangerousness of the American Left -- a Fifth Column comprised of the elements mentioned above, dedicated to achieving their goal of a totally internationally dominated America, and a true world-wide Fascism.

Thus far their long-term plans have been quite successful. A Kerry presidency will fully open their pipeline to infusions of taxpayer-funded cash and political pull. At least a continued Bush presidency would help to stem this tide, and along the way it might well succeed in preserving Western civilization against the fanatic Islamo-fascists who have the will, and may shortly have the weapons capability, to bring it to an end.

When the stakes are not high it is sometimes acceptable, even desirable, to vote for a "minor party" candidate who cannot possibly win, just to "get the word out" and to promote the ideals for which that candidate stands. But when the stakes are high, as they are in this election, it becomes imperative that one should choose, not the candidate one considers philosophically ideal, but the best one available who has the most favorable chance of winning. The forthcoming election will determine whether it is the Republicans or the Democrats that win the presidency. That is an undeniable reality. If the election is as close as it was in 2000, libertarian voters may make the difference as to who wins in various critical "Battle Ground" states and therefore the presidency itself. That is the situation in which we find ourselves in 2004. And that is why I believe voting for George W. Bush is the most libertarian thing we can do.

We stand today at an important electoral crossroads for the future of liberty, and as libertarians our first priority is to promote liberty and free markets, which is not necessarily the same as to promote the Libertarian Party. This time, if we vote Libertarian, we may win a tiny rhetorical battle, but lose the larger war.

John Hospers

Los Angeles, CA

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  • 33 comments

[info]zdover

October 26 2004, 01:02:25 UTC 7 years ago

crap!

There is no argument for the assertion that the Clintons, Ted Kennedy, Kofi Annan, and Jesse Jackson are part of an international organization of totalitarians. This is a stupid smear.

The claim that "brownshirt" democrats are harassing Republican voters is unsubstantiated, and the equation of Democrats with Hitler's army of thugs is a stupid and misleading smear. The brownshirts pursued a policy of beating (often to death) those who opposed the NSDAP. This isn't happening in this country. Neither party is doing anything like what Hitler's brownshirts did. Hospers apparently expects that I am ignorant of history and willing to accept his blustery bullshit in place of knowledge.

Would a flat tax or a sales tax be a step in the direction of liberty and prosperity? This letter surely asserts this, but I don't see any argument for it, and I have no reason to believe that a flat tax will lead to liberty and prosperty.

The claim that Afghanistan is not a safe haven for terrorists is contentious at best.

Pursuing a policy of campaign finance reform is not necessarily a First Amendment issue, and it is evident that money is not speech. If an increase in wealth is correlative to an increase in influence in the government, then the wealthy prevent the poor from pursuing their goals through the government (which is putatively set up to respond to the desires of all citizens).

What an insult to my intelligence, to claim that a vote for the Democratic candidate is a vote for the liberal fifth column, which will sell America to a transnational legislative body and work to renounce the autonomy of our Republic. Also, to equate a vote for Kerry with a vote for Fascists is just fucking stupid.

This is a link to factcheck.org that details the incidence of the tax cuts Hospers is talking about. I did not receive a tax cut from this president and I do not know of anyone who did. Naturally, I do not hobnob with the 10 richest percent of the populace.

"The American electorate is not yet psychologically prepared for a completely libertarian society." ??? Hold on there, Plato. Instead of molding the electorate into something it isn't, why don't we make an honest attempt to use the mechanism of government to reflect the preferences and gratify the desires of the electorate? I'm sure as hell no friend of the liberal-left belief in the saving power of education. And I'll admit that voters are confused about a lot of issues. But this desire to mold people into something they're not seems really similar to, well, Plato, Marx, and everyone of that ilk. If Hospers is keen on removing the blinders on the electorate and allowing everyone to judge for himself what will make the best government, then he's got a laudable aim. But nothing in his letter makes me believe that this is his aim, or that his aim is to do anything but deceive.

Hospers claims that Bush might puruse a policy of social security privatizaion that will bring the budget deficit down. What plan is this, and how will it put the budget back in the black?

Which Teresa-Kerry-like foundations are these that work to undermine the system of checks and balances, and how are they going about this work?

In short, what a lot of crap.

[info]mitherial

October 26 2004, 09:51:40 UTC 7 years ago

Re: crap!

There is no argument for the assertion that the Clintons, Ted Kennedy, Kofi Annan, and Jesse Jackson are part of an international organization of totalitarians. This is a stupid smear.

Look at what he actually said:
"Regardless of what he may say in current campaign speeches, his record is unmistakable: he belongs to the International Totalitarian Left in company with the Hillary and Bill Clintons, the Kofi Annans, the Ted Kennedys, and the Jesse Jacksons of the world."


You blatantly misinterpreted him; he didn't mean a -literal- organization (other than the UN), but a 'movement':

1) the welfare state (forcibly taking money from some in order to give it to others), big government, compulsory education etc. [the liberal part]

2) the idea that America, per se, is evil (immoral, wrong...) and should submit itself to the will of other nations [thus the 'interantional' part].
From a Libertarian or even Objectivist veiwpoint, all of these things are totolitarian, and he is saying that they are typical "liberal" views, with an "international" spin on it.



The claim that "brownshirt" democrats are harassing Republican voters is unsubstantiated

Protestors Ransack Bush/Cheney Headquarters In Orlando
http://www.news4jax.com/politics/3787122/detail.html
Or, look at Sinclair media group being threatened with lawsuits and FTC sanctions if it airs the anti-Kerry documentary (which couldn't possibly be less factual than "Farenheight 9-11")


Would a flat tax or a sales tax be a step in the direction of liberty and prosperity? This letter surely asserts this, but I don't see any argument for it, and I have no reason to believe that a flat tax will lead to liberty and prosperty.

Please note that he addressed this letter "Dear Libertarian"; a short letter is not the forum to argue for this position, which is commonly held among both among Libertarians and Objectivists. [Compressed argument: a flat tax is more fair, requires less red-tape, and is a first step unestablish the idea that it is "ok" for the government to arbitrarily extort money out of its populace; and finally that a flat tax is thus a step towards an economically free-er society (where individual rights are enforced), as economic freedom leads to greater prosperity because of the greater ability of the human mind to operate in free conditions.

The claim that Afghanistan is not a safe haven for terrorists is contentious at best.

Not so; sure there may be plenty of terrorists stil operating in/out of Afganistan, but it is no longer a "safe-haven" for them, as it was when the Taliban was in control; they are under constant threat of discovery and death.

[info]zdover

October 26 2004, 12:47:41 UTC 7 years ago

Re: crap!

Hospers calls these Democrat personalities totalitarians. I am not misinterpreting him here; certainly not "blatantly". I don't even have to interpret him; I can quote him. "he belongs to the International Totalitarian Left in company with the Hillary and Bill Clintons, the Kofi Annans, the Ted Kennedys, and the Jesse Jacksons of the world."

None of these people are saying or even implying that "America is evil".

One party alone isn't to blame for fraudulent, criminal behavior around election time:
http://www.pww.org/past-weeks-2000/Mob%20tactics%20in%20Florida.htm

What does the factuality of Fahrenheit 9/11 have to do with the actions of Sinclair Media group?

Your argument for the flat tax is entirely without persuasive force. It's not clear that the flat tax is more fair, and characterizing taxation as extortion is just silly. It's possible that taxation is extortion, but it's also possible that taxation isn't extortion. I suppose if you don't want to pay taxes, then you'll characterize taxation as extortion. But when deciding whether your claims are to be taken seriously, we should probably weigh the likelihood of your characterizing policy matters honestly against the likelihood of your using language germane to the pursuit of your goals.

It's not clear that a taxless society is one in which individual rights are enforced, unless you assume that freedom from taxation is part of a package called "individual rights". But most argument probably reduces to two people arguing over whether an assumption should be made, and all arguments of the form p -> (q->p) are valid in every case. I'm guessing that your argument goes something like this: Freedom from taxation is an individual right that should be enforced. If I live in a free society, then I live in a society in which freedom from taxation is an individual right that is enforced. But it's not clear that this should be the definition of "free society". It may very well be the definition, but without further argument there's no reason to accept it as the definition.

I stand by my statement regarding Afghanistan. We know nothing about the situation there. We cannot honestly rely on the media to bring us news of the situation there. We cannot rely on the United States Army to report honestly what the situation there is. We can't rely on the executive branch of the government to report honestly what the situation there is.

[info]mitherial

October 26 2004, 10:08:51 UTC 7 years ago

Re: crap!

What an insult to my intelligence, to claim that a vote for the Democratic candidate is a vote for the liberal fifth column, which will sell America to a transnational legislative body and work to renounce the autonomy of our Republic.

You keep injecting things into his letter that just aren't there: they won't sell America, they're trying to give it away! But this is exactly what Kerry is doing when he says that we shouldn't have gone into Iraq without UN approval, that we should bend over backwards and take it up the ass in order to get France and Germany's approval, that the UN should oversee America's elections; a TOTAL abnegation of America's soveriegnity in foriegn policy, and steps toward it in domestic [rooted undoubtedly in Kerry et als. hatred (probably unconscious) for the values that America was founded on]


Naturally, I do not hobnob with the 10 richest percent of the populace.

So, we should send the (statistically) most productive portion of the population against the wall, at least economicaly speaking? But I'm glad that such a mainstay of the Proletariat as you refrains from associating with those Bourgeoisie Capitalist Pigs who are stealing from the working class by making more than the officially sanctioned amount. That last statement was sarcastic, but really, assuming that they didn't get their wealth through force or fraud, did they not earn through free market value whatever they happened to make?

Hold on there, Plato. Instead of molding the electorate into something it isn't, why don't we make an honest attempt to use the mechanism of government to reflect the preferences and gratify the desires of the electorate?

You are assuming the false idea that the electorate should be able to vote in violations of individual rights; The proper state, of which we live in an approximation of, is a constitutionally limited republic NOT a democracy. Democracy, per se, is mob rule. [Ok, this is more Objectivism than Libertarianism, but hey, this is aynrandforum

[info]zdover

October 26 2004, 12:27:25 UTC 7 years ago

responses to your

Did Hospers not say that the Clintons, Jackson, Kennedy, and Annan were members of the "International Totalitarian Left"? Is that somehow not an accusation of totalitarianism? (I'm assuming that "totalitarianism" is a term that means "central planning of economic matters coupled with absolute sovereignty invested in either one person or a small body of people".)

Advocating a non-isolationist, UN-friendly foreign policy is not the same thing as hating America.

One of the values this country was founded on was an acceptance of the institution of slavery. So maybe a blind adherence to the values the country was founded on is not the best way to maintain a just system of government.

I don't believe that John Kerry hates the country, and I don't believe that you've argued for that proposition.

I don't really know what it means when you characterize coalition-building as "taking it up the ass". So far as I can tell, that's a metaphor that seeks to establish the undesirability of a given position by equating that position with taking it up the ass, and assuming that I have a severe distaste for taking it up the ass. Since I've never taken it up the ass, I don't know what to make of your statements. I wonder if you think that G. H. W. Bush took it up the ass in the summer of 1990 when he built a multinational coalition before Desert Shield/Storm.

What does it mean to abnegate America's sovereignty in domestic policy? Is there any argument you can put forth that doesn't rely on the assumption that the UN is an organization that is inherently-America's-sovereignty-in-domestic-policy unfriendly?

Should we sent the [...] most productive portion of the population against the wall, at least economically speaking? Should we shoot them to death? Of course not. Should we tax them? Maybe. Shooting people to death is not the same thing as taxing them. Also, it's not clear that the most productive people are the ones earning the most money. In a competitive system, it may be the case that the most productive people are the ones earning the most money. But there's nothing even approximating true competition in this country. Also, most of the rich people I've met inherited their money. I suspect the vast majority of rich people got rich the same way. Is it considered earning, to be pulled out of the right womb?

I'm not a Bolshevik. I'm not a Socialist. I don't think that there's an "officially sanctioned amount" that people should be earning, and I don't see anything in my earlier post to suggest that I think that there is.

I don't know what your last paragraph means.

[info]baikonur

October 26 2004, 15:58:26 UTC 7 years ago

Re: responses to your

What does it mean to abnegate America's sovereignty in domestic policy? Is there any argument you can put forth that doesn't rely on the assumption that the UN is an organization that is inherently-America's-sovereignty-in-domestic-policy unfriendly?


I don't think the idea that the UN acts in a manner that doesn't have America's best interests in mind is an assumption; it seems to be quite an objective fact based on the comments and actions of it's member states. The mere fact that several of the Security Council member states voted against our action in Iraq to further line their own pocketbooks with oil-for-food money seems proof enough, but that aside, what can you think of that the UN has done lately that did have our best interests at heart? I can think of nothing, although I can think of lots of instances where the UN has tried to limit American sovereignty both in foreign and domestic affairs, or where they want us to foot the bill for some humanitarian adventure. The very structure of the UN is not conducive to American self-interest, because you give a disproportionate and often arbitrary amount of power to countries who do not warrant it.

Also, most of the rich people I've met inherited their money. I suspect the vast majority of rich people got rich the same way. Is it considered earning, to be pulled out of the right womb?


This is factually and statistically incorrect. The majority of wealth in this country is earned wealth, and even inherited wealth was earned at one time. It is the nature of entrepreneurialism in a market economy, where people undertake a risk in order to reap the profits. There is no rational agument that can be made for taxing the wealthy at a higher percentage than anyone else. Any argument to that end is based on the need (greed) of others and the fact that popularly elected legislators can impose the will of the masses through force.

I don't know what your last paragraph means.
If you don't understand what he was saying, I doubt you understand what it was you said and that he was replying to. </i>

[info]zdover

October 26 2004, 18:12:40 UTC 7 years ago

Re: responses to your

Let's hear the list of instances in which the UN has tried to limit American sovereignty in domestic affairs.

We don't live in a market economy. I was under the impression that a market economy is one in which there is competition. Due to the very high entrance costs of almost every industry, there is no hope of competing in this economy unless you have an enormous amount of money at the beginning or you're willing to compete in a niche market or you don't want to prosper very much. If I wanted to run a software company or even a grocery store, I'd have a really hard time getting started. Once I had gotten started, I'd almost certainly have to deal with predatory pricing aimed at taking me out of the market and eliminating my ability to compete. I wouldn't have the wealth to counter this attack by selling yet lower, so I would have to leave the market.

Here's a silly claim:
There is no rational agument that can be made for taxing the wealthy at a higher percentage than anyone else.

Sure there is. If the poor are dying and the wealthy have buckets of money, then the government (which is instituted by the people for their own benefit) has an obligation to redistribute the wealth so that the poor don't die.

I'm not a socialist, and I'm uncomfortable with the idea of taxation because I think it divorces wealth from responsibility. (I also think that inherited wealth divorces wealth from responsibility.) But to say that there's no rational argument for the wealthy to be taxed at a higher rate than the poor is just silly. Also, popularly elected legislators are supposed to impose the will of the masses, through force if necessary. That's what being part of a representative republic is all about.

By the way, what does "rational" mean? It's a word that a lot of people use, and so far as I can tell, it means "in line with the ideas of the speaker or writer".

I understood what I was saying. I was saying that Hospers's project to change the electorate into something germane to his political goals was similar to Plato's project of changing people into the sort of people in his Republic. The response I got from mitherial was:

You are assuming the false idea that the electorate should be able to vote in violations of individual rights; The proper state, of which we live in an approximation of, is a constitutionally limited republic NOT a democracy. Democracy, per se, is mob rule. [Ok, this is more Objectivism than Libertarianism, but hey, this is aynrandforum

This is still confusing.

[info]baikonur

October 26 2004, 19:07:05 UTC 7 years ago

Re: responses to your

Obviously he gets it and you still don't.

Objectivism, Ayn Rand's philosophy, is often referred to as rational philosophy. Since this is the Ayn Rand forum, perhaps people assume this is known.

If you want to nurse the cynical belief that there is no such thing as competition, I won't try to convince you. But every day people embark on new business endeavours that will become succesfull, and innovation is just as marketable as it ever was. Our economy thrives on the operation of the market, and is fueled by people with good ideas and the willingness to take risks. Those people will end up being the wealthy and successfull; nihilists who have no faith in their own ability or in their own ideas will always be worker bees.

the entire thread was:

Hold on there, Plato. Instead of molding the electorate into something it isn't, why don't we make an honest attempt to use the mechanism of government to reflect the preferences and gratify the desires of the electorate?

You are assuming the false idea that the electorate should be able to vote in violations of individual rights; The proper state, of which we live in an approximation of, is a constitutionally limited republic NOT a democracy. Democracy, per se, is mob rule. [Ok, this is more Objectivism than Libertarianism, but hey, this is aynrandforum


The idea that the proper use of government is as a mechanism by which to gratify the desires of the mob does not respect individual rights, and since this is a forum to discuss a philosophy which at its most fundamental point stresses the importance of such rights, you might understand how that sort of suggestion is disturbing. A rational person will not assume that it is morally sound to violate the rights of others in order to gratify their own desires. If slavery is morally wrong, taxation of the rich by the poor is also; both systems force someone to work and produce against their will for the benfit of a less deserving party.

The sort of emotional rationalization you employ to justify taxing the rich to feed the poor assumes that the poor are more worthy of the money than the person who earned it. I would much prefer to see the truly needy in this country have to resort to private charity or live a life of poverty than to prop them up with a welfare system that simply reinforces the bad choices they made to get where they are.

Most people agree that it is wrong for a thief to go up to someone with a gun and force them to give up their money to gratify a third party, but people feel okay if they can use the government as a middleman to accomplish the same end. They assume that since the wealthy in this country prefer to pay up instead of go to jail, that constitutes a sanction that absolves them and they don't have to be bothered by the brutal fact of what is occuring.

Also, popularly elected legislators are supposed to impose the will of the masses, through force if necessary.

This is a sad misconception of the nature and purpose of the legislature; legislators are not intended to raise taxes and then bid amongst themselves for the proceeds, they are intended to represent their constituents in good faith. Legislators are intended to be leaders, what they are in reality is a group of whores who buy votes through whatever means. Our difference lies in that I condemn that sort of behaviour, you endorse it.

[info]zdover

October 26 2004, 22:36:03 UTC 7 years ago

just a quick note

I don't endorse the sort of behavior that you claim I endorse.

Cheers!

Deleted comment

[info]rinku

7 years ago

[info]baikonur

7 years ago

[info]rinku

7 years ago

[info]zdover

7 years ago

[info]mitherial

7 years ago

[info]zdover

7 years ago

[info]rinku

October 29 2004, 08:08:16 UTC 7 years ago

Re: responses to your

"This is factually and statistically incorrect. The majority of wealth in this country is earned wealth, and even inherited wealth was earned at one time."

then let's see some facts about this. according to my knowledge, most wealth actually *is* from inheritance. and that doesn't even mean it was once earned -- it could have been once stolen. for example, i once read that something like 90% of millionares in japan are descended from samurai, who of course gained their money through force. in europe, many rich families are descended from aristocrats. in america there is less of this, but it still exists to some extent.

[info]baikonur

October 29 2004, 09:45:26 UTC 7 years ago

Re: responses to your

There is inherited wealth, no doubt. But the vast majority of wealth in this country is earned.

I read a book last year called "the Millionaire Next Door." The authors in that book did a great job of illustrating through research and statistics, how the vast majority of wealthy individuals in this country earned their wealth through business and entrepreunerial risk.

I am not a robot, and I can't spout back statistics to you. I don't have the time or inclination to research every false assertion that is made by people in discussions such as these. The research has been done however, and if you are so inclined you could find it.

[info]rinku

7 years ago

[info]zdover

7 years ago

[info]baikonur

7 years ago

[info]wynand

October 26 2004, 06:32:07 UTC 7 years ago

Apropos of "brownshirt" Democrats: the other day a friend and I were downtown with a sign marked "Blood For Oil" and a pair of phony vampire fangs, for a humorous gag. I didn't think it was politically-charged so much as semantically-charged (the slogan "No Blood For Oil" is pretty stupid), but we still had a clear division of response based on political party. Democrats typically asked us what we meant or generally talked about their positions; Republicans (with one exception) screamed at us, threatened us, or in one case actually came about two seconds from punching us out, stealing our signs, knocking my pal's vampire fangs onto the street. And then of course the guy who said "YOU WANT TO REALLY OFFEND ME? CLAIM THAT GOD DOESN'T EXIST, FUCKER"

Obviously this would have been different if we had a sign about cutting health care to the poor or something, but I still very much doubt that we would have been *physically threatened by Democratic crusaders*. Maybe that's an irresponsible counterfactual claim that I have no business making, this claim that drunken Democrats would not bellow and grab shirt fronts. Who can say? All I know is that had I not already been hell-bent on voting for Kerry, the behavior of Bush's power base has more or less convinced me that I don't want to support anything these people are supporting.

Also, this is very likely the most irresponsible article ever. "Presumably he and a small cadre of bureaucrats should rule the world, via the U. N. or some other world body which will make all decisions for the whole world concerning private property, the use of our military, gun ownership, taxation, and environmental policy (to name a few). In his thirty-year career he has demonstrated utter contempt for America, national security, constitutional republicanism, democracy, private property, and free markets. Gosh, better not vote for the MASTERS OF EVIL then! They trample the good! With rhetoric!

[info]rinku

October 26 2004, 08:50:50 UTC 7 years ago

but realise this: we need that god! yes, fundie christians might come close to beating you up for saying their god doesn't exist, but fundie muslims (and there are a whole lot more of them) will dance around your dead body after biting you to death. we need yhwh to hold off allah for awhile, you can't kick your weaker opponent when he's down in a three-man fight! that defies the laws of combat!

[info]wynand

November 3 2004, 09:14:18 UTC 7 years ago

This law of combat makes no sense, unless you believe gods get their power specifically based on quantity of worshippers. But religion isn't a democracy; surely it's the quality of the god or principle that matters. Assuming a reliance on Occam's Razor, atheism trumps both yhwh and allah effortlessly in the logical rigor contest.

Even assuming that religion does get its power based on quantity of worshippers, and the last man standing gets to believe in whatever God he wants (and assuming that everyone actually wants to resolve this contest by leaving other religions and beliefs dead), I don't think you can leave a religion alive in order to partially shield your religion from attacks. Religions aren't like physical bodies; a religion is not going to get weaker the more it's attacked. The metaphor fails, fails

[info]rinku

November 3 2004, 09:20:07 UTC 7 years ago

it's not a metaphfor, i'm being literal. yes, they are literal physical bodies, they are superorganisms. read the lucifer principle! i can say no more. you need to understand, understand

[info]roark_therapist

October 26 2004, 09:16:44 UTC 7 years ago

Why do elections have to be so damn miserable?!? I swear, people might actually get interested enough in politics to actually learn about the issues and accomplish some good (or at least hold their candidates to doing so), were the entire process not a grand partisan game of "how low can you go?"

Democrats harp all over discrimination and marginalization issues to the point of excess and/or the inapropriate -> Republicans claim that they are being marginalized and that their beliefs are making them targets for discrimination by the internationalist liberal thought police...

Republicans fuel reactionary anger as a "debate" tactic, using implied threats and personal attacks to discourage opposition and dissent -> Democrats dig up a "hellfire and damnation" reactionary angle to further ram their views down the throats of others, just in case condescension isn't enough...

The problem with politics as that the end seems to invariably justify the means, and the level of shamelessness seems to be on the rise in recent years (not to say there aren't historical examples to justify it, but it's still a sorry sight). That in itself wouldn't even be so bad, but once the two become entwined, there seems to be no separating them... especially with election desperation thrown in... and now too many tainted results and too much image-focus are bringing the process down...

[info]baikonur

October 26 2004, 15:31:26 UTC 7 years ago

All I know is that had I not already been hell-bent on voting for Kerry, the behavior of Bush's power base has more or less convinced me that I don't want to support anything these people are supporting.


That is not logical.

I won't try to convince you not to vote for Kerry, but the idea that you wouldn't vote for Bush simply because some of his supporters are tools is an illogical, emotional response. A decision like this ought to be made based on the positions and records of each candidate. To be honest, it flabberasts me how anyone who considers themselves an objectivist could even consider voting for Kerry. I can understand a reluctance or even a refusal to vote for Bush in the form of an abstention, but why on earth would you *want* Kerry in office and help him get there? Most of Bush's policies aren't predicated on rational self-interest, that much is clear- but most of his policies are far better for the country and for all of us as individuals than *anything* Kerry has proposed.

[info]wynand

October 26 2004, 15:45:13 UTC 7 years ago

(1) I'm not an Objectivist
(2) I like Kerry's energy and education policies

[info]coldhardmetal

October 26 2004, 21:15:57 UTC 7 years ago

Nonobjectivists

1) Why would a non-objectivist waste his time on an objectivist board? More importantly, why would one try to waste our time with a non-objective argument? ie. a Kerry vote? I won't engage in a middle school shouting match on who is right, but I'm quite certain a loaded gun would not convince Ayn Rand to vote Kerry.

2) Ayn Rand does state in an interview to playboy, that accepting something that was only partly "evil" was no better an alternative than the fully evil. Kerry's alternative energy plan is the only position resonating with me. But it doesn't quite make sense to stand on one well-screwed in floorboard while the rest of the house collapses.

Deleted comment

[info]coldhardmetal

October 27 2004, 23:23:31 UTC 7 years ago

Re: Nonobjectivists

For starters, I didn't say who I voted for. That wasn't my point. As for taking the objective truth into practical application, do you really think your point was made by comparing a "mild liar" to a child rapist?

There was a common theme shared by Rand's heroic protagonists: they refused to compromise the rational [note i don't say their ideals--which oftentimes is not based on logic] in lieu of the easy way out. Some did, like the newspaper tycoon in Fountainhead--he is deemed a failure and doesn't get the girl.

The reason I admire the philosophy of Ayn Rand is her strict adherence to black and white... no shades of gray. It reflects who I am. Sure it is inconvenient, but its also inconvenient to give up my ration, as if the herd of sheep legitimizes truth by popular vote. So is there a point? Yes, a personal one. Do you the reader advocate AR bc its cool, or do you really live it? If either the donkey or the elephant are merely shades of gray to black, then a vote for either compromises the meaning of your time spent perusing this forum.

[info]rinku

October 29 2004, 07:59:09 UTC 7 years ago

Re: Nonobjectivists

this community is *co-moderated* by a non-objectivist (me), so i don't see anything wrong with having non-objectivist members. as long as a person is interested in ayn rand and familiar with the philosophy, they add to the community's worth.

also, both bush and kerry have energy plans and education plans which are partly evil. it makes no sense to not have anything to do with something just because it's part evil. in ayn rand's donahue interview, she said as much, she said you have to weigh the good and the bad when dealing with people, and deal with them if the good outweighs the bad. the idea of non-compromise between good and evil is an issue of not compromising ideas or principles, it does not mean that you should have nothing to do with anyone a little evil.

that said, i still plan to vote for bush because he's the less evil candidate. wynand and i have argued about this before, and i respect his choice, he just has different priorities than i do (he values energy and education and science more, i value anti-terrorism more). but you calling his choice bad is disrespectful.

[info]coldhardmetal

October 29 2004, 09:30:24 UTC 7 years ago

Re: Nonobjectivists

Foods for thought, indeed. I of course don't mean to be unwelcoming, merely think people should at times re-examine any rigidity in personal stances. But how do objectivists who believe that A leads to B leads to C plan to reach agreement with a nonobjectivist who believes in intuition and hope? Or is the answer, that hopefully one side will conform to the other? Or perhaps we always need a basis of comparison to remind ourselves who we are?

I did hope to conclude my input by decrying the sad state of America's biparty system that upholds the "lesser of two evils" ration, which is only less repulsive than the "bandwagon vote"--where people vote with the party they think is winning. Rinku, in the practical world, I think your moderating thoughts and vote are reasonable. Having been a perennial Republican, I threw my vote away this week on the silly matters of principle. Kerry is evil, Bush is half the evil, and my option Other doesn't stand a chance. But if I were to wax un-objectively and unrealistically, if everyone voted without hyped fear and greed and hate and with sheer ration and the benefits of proper education in economics, govt and history...

[info]rinku

7 years ago

[info]rinku

October 26 2004, 08:52:42 UTC 7 years ago

boo, delta said no more talk on voting outside of that one thread! this breaks the rules, but i guess i can suffer its existance, if only because it has a good ayn rand quote which i never heard before in it.
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